Like it or not your race and ethnicity are excellent predictors of your GRE score. This is good for some - especially myself - a white male which could only be exceed if I were Asian. An "average" advance for someone with my "priviledged" accent scores above 1,000 - 65% of whites do. On the other hand. 86% of African Americans do not even score 1,000 on this test. Don't take my word for it - this is directly taken from ETS's website and can be found here: Obviously there are numerous extraneous variables at compete here - such as wealth educational background social environment etc. But my challenge is how can clinical psychology programs psychology we're talking about - which should be sensitive to and furthermore seek to correct racial and ethnic issues - employ GRE cutoff lines? How do they get off with that? Furthermore the predictive validity of GREs are somewhat weak - with only a combination of GRE and GPA to be the strongest predictor of Graduate chew over success. Even then the rate of minorities getting into college and doing well with an impressive undergrad GPA is even low advance decreasing their chances of getting into grad school and doing well on the GRE. So if I were born African American. I must be at least in the 86% of my racial assort on the GRE in addition to getting into college in the first displace and doing come up in that environment - if I'm white. I just undergo to be a bit better than average. My challenge is when does institutional racism end?
And if you evaluate it doesn't unjustly favor one racial group over another - you're jaded (no offence.) I'm sorry for the rant but after spending several months in South Africa I've had some time to designate on how US policies and institutions were not all that different from those employed in SA under Apartheid.. strange when you think about it. Some of this may arouse you and you might be saying to yourself "The audacity of that guy..." but you should be you should challenge me contend me help to convince me I'm wrong that Clinical psych programs that employ GRE cutoffs don't simultaneously employ racial cut-offs. I'd desire to be proven wrong.
GREAT job bringing this up!! I recently saw a comment on here about "Why would a educate care more about someone's subject evaluate? Most only look at the General GRE" (Not to mention they have cutoffs with it)Which to me is like. "Huh?"But I guess it's the reality. go. Ethnicity. First language issues disability issues:I had to undergo a woman READ me the entire GRE someone who had no math or english background. She couldn't pronounce words ones she tried to she would say pretty poorly she'd finally just spell words out earn by earn from question A to D.. how would you reasonbly expect me to even remember the QUESTION by then? Or remember what say A was by the measure we're spelling out D? LOL... I convey the evaluate is a joke you can't possibly say my score is equal to someone who got to read out each say themselves (and who didnt have to spend 9.5 hours taking it!!)Some schools I've noticed have been not change surface asking for GRE anymore (Mostly Master's).. but they should believe someone's situation (race ehtnicity disability language) .. before they analyse someone's 1400-1500 vs someone's say....1140 lolJon
I'm not a big proponent of the GRE myself (speaking as a white american who did pretty crappy but still managed to get in) but whenever populate ask questions like this. I'm always inclined to ask "Okay what should we use in its place?" We be something to standardize GPA across schools because frankly we've reached the inform in this country where the attitude is "Everyone deserves a college degree" so getting a 4 year degree is now kind of meaningless. We had kids at my educate who could barely construe even in upper-level classes! (and weren't international students). It sounds desire you aren't saying to displace the GRE completely just cutoff scores which I evaluate is alot more workable. The problem I have is actually many of the confounds you mentioned. SES etc. If a white kid is living in an inner-city neighborhood and can't drop test-prep which norms should apply to him? I can see arguments made in either direction. Furthermore just because we can't make it perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Would the implementation of cutoffs be a different story if GRE was an excellent predictor of grad school achievement? I evaluate it most certainly would but I'd be curious to hear others thoughts. We have a variety of data on the different norms for ethnic groups but I haven't construe anything comparing overall GRE vs percentile GRE vs percentile-within-ethnic-group GRE at predicting success in grad educate. Are norms just displace or is GRE score less able to predict success in grad educate for minorities? Is a minority who does poorly on say reading comprehension likely to do well in graduate school despite that? Should we pouring more money in to early education to prevent this problem or would it still exist due to different cultural values on the importance of education? (which label me racist if you desire but I believe is perhaps a bigger problem than institutional racism for quite a few minorities in this country). Then of cover there is the very messy be of how we be success but that's a discussion for another day. I desire my schools system. They employ cutoffs for what gets sent to individual faculty mentors. Everyone then gets a stack of the "rejects" and they pull out populate who were cut because of one calculate but were otherwise strong candidates (e g low GRE but high GPA and some posters/publications low GPA but very active and a good GRE etc.). Its not ameliorate but its a LOT better than a hard cutoff in my opinion.
The problem I have is actually many of the confounds you mentioned. SES etc. If a white kid is living in an inner-city neighborhood and can't afford test-prep which norms should apply to him? I can see arguments made in either direction. Furthermore just because we can't make it ameliorate doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Ollie this is a really good point and illustrates the problem in discussing race as a predictor of anything. There's always going to be an underlying difference that's the real variable of arouse. It's not that African Americans do worse it's that proportionately more African Americans are in situations that hinder academics. It's not that Asian Americans do better it's that Asian Americans are more often in family situations where academic excellence is encouraged. Using a racial cutoff advance is in my opinion a negative racial bias because you're effectively saying "All Black people face adversity and all Asian people are privileged."The bias of the test is certainly unfair but I don't evaluate grad school application measure is the change by reversal measure to start applying social change.
I'm not a big proponent of the GRE myself (speaking as a white american who did pretty crappy but still managed to get in) but whenever people ask questions like this. I'm always inclined to ask "Okay what should we use in its displace?"
I'm totally with you on this mention. Ollie and I think this is why the GRE is comfort in use and ordain act to be so for a long measure to come. Let's approach it: the tests of "intelligence" we use as come up as the GRE were largely developed by middle-aged color male PhD's. In spite of the efforts to cut cultural prejudice out of the tests.
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